Disability & Politics

PerfectImp,

If you were the patient in the hospital hooked up to life support, would you want the plug to be pulled?  If a loved one was in that circumstance, would you want the plug to be pulled?  Would you pull that plug?  If you answer yes to any of these questions, please ask yourself why.  Why would a life end when that life is capable of continuing with medical technology?  I think it was Lynn who mentioned "quality" vs. "quantity".  It's something to think about.  It is the reason many people want DNR instructions in writing so that pulling the plug is never a question in the first place.  Are you against DNRs as well?

I gave an outragious example of a broken heart & a stubbed toe to bring home the point that situational depression would obviously not qualify for assisted suicide by a professional medical doctor.  The line is drawn by the physician and the law of the land.  "Double standards" have nothing to do with legal assisted suicide.

What people assume about those who commit suicide doesn't necessarily have anthing to do with actual facts.  How or why are you assuming that suicides are "normally" due to physical pain?  Human animals "normally" have an innate sense of survival.  When we see that sense of survival overcome, we have a really hard time understanding how this could be.  The easiest and most convenient explanation is that the person was imbalanced, insane, mentally ill, etc.

I am happy that you've never had suicidal ideation; however I have had and many others have had thoughts of suicide as an option.  I have never acted on these thoughts, but I have them.  I would want to know that I could end my own life with control and safety and certainty if the time was to come when that was my final option.

By severely disabled, I mean someone who is basically in a persistant vegatative state with no chance of recovery.

Cannoli:

PerfectImp,

If you were the patient in the hospital hooked up to life support, would you want the plug to be pulled?  If a loved one was in that circumstance, would you want the plug to be pulled?  Would you pull that plug?  If you answer yes to any of these questions, please ask yourself why.  Why would a life end when that life is capable of continuing with medical technology?  I think it was Lynn who mentioned "quality" vs. "quantity".  It's something to think about.  It is the reason many people want DNR instructions in writing so that pulling the plug is never a question in the first place.  Are you against DNRs as well?

I gave an outragious example of a broken heart & a stubbed toe to bring home the point that situational depression would obviously not qualify for assisted suicide by a professional medical doctor.  The line is drawn by the physician and the law of the land.  "Double standards" have nothing to do with legal assisted suicide.

What people assume about those who commit suicide doesn't necessarily have anthing to do with actual facts.  How or why are you assuming that suicides are "normally" due to physical pain?  Human animals "normally" have an innate sense of survival.  When we see that sense of survival overcome, we have a really hard time understanding how this could be.  The easiest and most convenient explanation is that the person was imbalanced, insane, mentally ill, etc.

I am happy that you've never had suicidal ideation; however I have had and many others have had thoughts of suicide as an option.  I have never acted on these thoughts, but I have them.  I would want to know that I could end my own life with control and safety and certainty if the time was to come when that was my final option.

 

Ok, I'm going to try and hit all the points in your post, Cannoli, but if I miss any, please let me know because I am enjoying this intelligent, thoughtful, respectful debate :)

 

First of all, if I was on lifesupport to the point of not being able to live without extreme measures, yes I would want the "plug pulled". I think God equipts us as humans with the knowledge to have advanced medical technology. However, when I reach the point that I am not alive, merely my body is because of science, I have ceased to live in my opinion. Being on such extreme life support would seem to me that my consciousness and self-awareness is no longer alive, and that to me, is God telling me it's my time to go. I know both of my parents have told me that if they are ever on life support, with no chance of recovering, they want the plug pulled. I think that would be very difficult for me to do, but it's their wishes. I see nothing wrong with those who believe in DNR. If those people believe that once they have ceased breathing and their heart has stopped that God has called them home, then that is their opinion and I respect that.

 

As for the depression issue, what my point is, is that in our society, those who attempt or commit suicide are often referred to as "troubled" or depressed or what have you. It is considered something connected to their mental state that is not "normal". But when someone decides their life isn't worth living because they are in a wheelchair, for example, it is "okay" for them to "die with dignity". So I do see a double standard. Are mental evaluations performed on those who want to have assisted suicide? If not, why not? If so, do they turn away those who are clinically depressed and want to end their lives? If so, that's wrong. If we are going to allow those with physical pain to end their lives, how can we tell someone with mental pain they cannot do that? That is the double standard I am referring to. I personally don't believe assisted suicide should be legalized, but if it is, where do we draw the line?

 

I never said that suicide has typically has to do with physical pain. If I wrote that, I mistyped what I was trying to say. My point I would've been trying to make was that typically suicide is connected to those in mental pain, while those who want assisted suicide are typically in physical pain.

I think you're putting three scenarios out there Perf.....not two........the one is..........your heart doesn't beat on it's own.......neither can you breathe on your own.......two very good indications......God has called you home..........the other is pain........you didn't bring up pain as a reason for suicide till the very end........the third being depression........a whole nother discussion.........so........tell us how you feel they're different.......not the first......you explained that........but.......you have to seperate the other two.......and make a case for each.........please !.........peace and love.......Norma

Norma, I'm sorry but I'm really confused at what you're asking. I know I brought up things such as heartbeat and breathing, which was connected to the life support discussion that came up.

 

Pain and depression was what I was talking about in respect to suicide and assisted suicide.

 

So I'm not sure what you want me to seperate and explain, sorry!

Having never had mental pain I can't possibly relate to it.  Physical pain, yes.  I was lucky enough to have morphine to make that pain bearable and I healed.  But what of the pain that is relentless and can't be eased with medication.  I know that kind can drive you insane.  If someone had to live like that for the rest of their life and chose assisted suicide, why should it not be their choice.  The people Dr. K helped end their life when interview knew what their future held.  They had terminal illness such as multiple sclerosis or cancer and no hope of recovering.  Each administered the medicine themselves knowing full well the outcome. He just made it possible. Their families knew and honored their wishes.  I think it was with compassion and empathy that he performed this service.  The patients didn't chose this on a whim but knowing full well that their remaining days would be filled with agonizing pain and suffering. Their choice wasn't because they were simply depressed. They had been ill for years and their disease had ravashed their bodies. I hope that if I am ever presented with similiar circumstances I would have a Dr K to help me.  Lynn

I'm sorry, I just see too much of a slippery slope here. If we allow doctors to help us end our lives, what happens if in 20 years we decide that ending our lives at a hospital isn't enough "dignity" or "privacy" so we want our own families to help us? Will we then, as a society, work towards getting "perscription suicide"? I know this may sound outlandish, but if we begin practices like this, there's no telling what will happen next.

 

Oh, and as a religious person, that little commandment God gave me about "thou shalt not kill" is kind of an issue for me in thinking about legalizing things like this. I know not everyone is religious, so this is only my personal opinion that only applies to me or others like me.

 

And you can't forget how illegal murder is in our society. Isn't the definition of murder killing another person? I think by helping someone else end their life pretty much fits that. So say a husband helps his wife take 100 pain pills to O.D. because he wanted to help her end her life, will we charge him with murder? But isn't simply assisting suicide?

This is why assisted suicide is such a controvercial topic.  First, Dr K didn't committ murder. He made it possible for terminally ill patients to end their own lives. He didn't perform this for just anyone. They had to be extreme cases with no chance of getting better. They had 2 options neither one good. And Perf, I do believe in God and have great faith. I don't condone murder. I see assisted suicide and murder as two different things. And in 20 years maybe stem cells will have made this a mute point.